030 – The Brand SERP Guy, Jason Barnard

00:00.90
peteeveritt
Hello and welcome to this episode of the WPSCO show. Today, this is your co-host, Pete, by the way, I am not only joined by my other co-host, Mr. Jeff Patch, all the way from California, a which I say every episode, but we are joined by an esteemed guest who is another British accent on the show, but is from French France, Mr. Jason Barnard. Welcome to the show, Jason and Jeff.

00:25.58
Jason Barnard
Hi, well thank you very much. I’m delighted to be here from the south of France.

00:29.51
peteeveritt
There you go. You see, now now we’re all all just jealous, thinking of the med and, you know, the the the the vineyards and the baguettes and the croissants. Oh, don’t get me started. I love France.

00:40.41
peteeveritt
Anyway, um Jason, before we kind of, we we do have a few things sort of mapped out that we’re going to talk about today or sort of noted out that we’re going to talk about today.

00:40.88
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

00:49.56
peteeveritt
But before we get into all of that, do you just want to introduce yourself and give a little overview of who you are, what you do, but we kind of covered where you come from and all that sort of jazz?

00:59.66
Jason Barnard
right ah Well, thank you very much. Oh, I’ll start with the song. A quick hello low and we’re good to go. Welcome to your show, Jeff and Pete.

01:10.36
Jeff
New jingle, all right, we got it.

01:12.52
peteeveritt
That’s it.

01:13.34
Jeff
That other one that you used, I think AI4P, that’s gone, we’re using this now, that was great.

01:20.16
Jason Barnard
Right, well, I’m actually a musician like you guys. I was a professional musician for years in the 1990s in France, which is why I’m here in France, in a punk folk group playing in the alternative rock scene in France for 10 years, and it was really cool.

01:35.65
Jeff
I cannot find wait to find recordings of this.

01:35.91
Jason Barnard
ah

01:37.97
Jeff
This sounds awesome already.

01:38.98
Jason Barnard
Oh, we’ve got loads online.

01:39.54
Jeff
Punk folk. I’m see i’m being serious. This sounds awesome. I didn’t know this.

01:43.11
Jason Barnard
Oh, I’ll send you some.

01:43.23
Jeff
I love it already. Please.

01:44.80
Jason Barnard
ah we we we were like A TV station recorded us once, and those are really good recordings, and we were very well behaved, so it looks kind of like we’re quite a professional band.

01:55.69
Jason Barnard
um There are a lot out there. I still play music today. There’s a recording from a couple of weeks ago playing at the Jazz Cafe opposite. ah My house literally opposite. there’s a ah jazz It’s called the Jazz Corner Cafe, where they have jazz groups on, and they had me and my friend playing swing jazz.

02:11.85
peteeveritt
Wow, that is cool.

02:12.76
Jeff
How cool.

02:14.13
Jason Barnard
So cool. So I come from a music background like you and I have the ukulele which is much less impressive than the guitars that you guys have.

02:16.29
peteeveritt
Awesome.

02:21.03
Jason Barnard
um But um I play the double bass and the double bass is huge.

02:25.25
peteeveritt
Oh man, now that really is cool. That really is cool.

02:28.87
Jeff
I’m ready to go to France.

02:29.15
peteeveritt
For my birthday last year.

02:30.61
Jason Barnard
Come and jam.

02:31.21
Jeff
Hang out with Jason.

02:34.21
peteeveritt
So when I learned to play the drums, I mean, we’re off-piste already here. When I learned to play the drums, I used to play in a jazz band as part of school. And then we kind of took it on, when we all left the university, we all sort of went our different ways and it kind of broke down a little bit.

02:49.59
peteeveritt
But I used to sit between the trumpeters and the saxophonists at the back. And it was such a cool place to sit. And i’d I’d always wanted to learn a brass instrument. So for my birthday last year, my wife bought me a trumpet. And I’m i’m still trying to get the hang of it. i um But yeah, I love that kind of music and that that vibe that you got off it. And just sitting sitting at the back of this jazz band was so cool. Such a cool place to be.

03:16.72
peteeveritt
um

03:17.00
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

03:17.62
peteeveritt
And but play a music in group with a group of people, even if it’s just one of the person, you know, the two of you, that that camaraderie you get and it you just can’t replace it.

03:22.59
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

03:25.73
Jason Barnard
No, it’s super delightful. I mean, I’ve played music my whole adult life. Ironically, I was the only member of my family who didn’t learn music at school, and I’m the one who became a musician.

03:34.68
peteeveritt
Oh, wow.

03:38.75
Jason Barnard
So kind of the great irony is is is lovely. If you don’t bully your kids too much, maybe they’ll become professional musicians. Maybe they won’t. Who knows? um But with the question initially was, who am I and what do I do? I’m Jason Barnard. I have a company called Kari Kiwi. You can see the logo behind me. And we specialize in managing brands in search and assistive engines. So Google Search, chat GPT, Siri, Alexa. We help corporations, but particularly CEOs and founders of corporations, to control how these machines understand and represent them.

04:16.27
Jason Barnard
And that is key to the future of AI and the world that these AI assistive engines, the the chat GPTs, the Google Geminis, the Alexas, the series, the perplexities, the Clords of this world, they’re going to create a new world and you need to control how your brand, personal brand or corporate brand is perceived and represented. It’s going to be the key and the foundation to digital marketing, SEO, and probably your human existence online.

04:46.85
peteeveritt
Wow.

04:47.05
Jeff
scary to think about, scary to think about in a few ways there.

04:48.26
peteeveritt
Yeah.

04:50.03
Jeff
um

04:50.31
Jason Barnard
Yeah, and the thing is, I’m not scared.

04:50.19
peteeveritt
And that is the end of this week’s show. My mind’s blown at the minute.

04:53.90
Jason Barnard
Sorry.

04:55.54
peteeveritt
Sorry, go for it Jason.

04:57.18
Jason Barnard
No, no, no, it is scary. And I’ve been sitting in this for ages. And I’ve been given that I figured out how to control how these machines understand you and therefore represent you means that I’m not scared. And that’s the thing we offer ah to our clients that makes sense is we can protect you, we can help you.

05:16.66
Jason Barnard
and we can protect you from the danger of misunderstanding, misrepresented misrepresentation, and we can present you on a platter, a silver platter, the opportunities that these machines obviously represent.

05:30.50
Jeff
I imagine it’s going to happen anyway, right? They’re going to, I don’t know what the terms are, right?

05:32.83
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

05:34.74
Jeff
They’re going to index you or they’re going to label you, however you want to describe it. I’d actually love to kind of learn some better terms for that because it seems a little, feels a little off, but I think we’re we’re on the same page here. But so if you do it, you if you help it, you do it right the first time, you’re kind of.

05:44.76
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

05:48.89
Jeff
cutting to the chase or getting past maybe some of the muddy waters that are going to come when it thinks, so you know, it’s trying to analyze you and figure things out. And I don’t know. We keep, we keep talking on the show a lot about AI and the weird, you know, things we learn or see from it. And like I have followed, you know, some technical tutorials and they have you bounce around because they don’t logically flow. So I can only imagine what it’s going to start saying about me.

06:11.33
Jeff
when it digs down deep on the internet. And I don’t know if it’s going to mix up another Jeff patch or you know what I mean? Make up something about my past, but I can only imagine the horror stories that are going to come from.

06:16.85
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

06:21.25
Jeff
Hey, chat GPT, tell us about this employee that’s, ah you know, applying for our job.

06:22.21
Jason Barnard
ah

06:25.45
Jeff
Oh, okay.

06:25.85
Jason Barnard
Exactly.

06:26.01
Jeff
Well, he did this. and

06:28.47
Jason Barnard
Well, no, 100%. And that is the thing, is how they, I mean, they’re trying to understand everybody. So whether you like it or not, 24-7, they are trying to understand you, whether you like it or not.

06:40.66
Jason Barnard
So you can’t hide your head in the sand and hope it doesn’t happen. They will try to understand you. They’ll probably get it wrong. And the problem, one of the huge problems we we’re now discovering is a little bit of understanding is worse than no understanding at all. So either you have to have no digital footprint at all, in which case they can never understand you and you’ve got no problem. If they understand a bit and they get confident about it, they’ll just make it all up. And an example is my ex-wife who was in a cartoon with me. So after the music career, I then did a children’s entertainment cartoon career. yeah

07:11.97
peteeveritt
Wow.

07:12.24
Jason Barnard
And I educated Google, because it’s like a child, it wants to learn, it wants to understand. So does Siri, so does Alexa, so does Bing, so does chat GPT. They want to understand. So you feed them information and I got them to understand that she was a voice actress. And then I stopped because yeah it was an experiment and she was happy with it. So I’m like experimenting on my wife in any, on my ex-wife in any particularly nasty way.

07:36.93
Jason Barnard
But I didn’t really think, okay, that is potentially a problem because then I asked Chuck GPT, tell me about Ronique Barnard’s career. And it said, she’s Swiss-Canadian, started a music career in 1974 with an album called Hello, then starred in a film with Yves Saint Laurent called Mavi et Belle in 1968. And it went through this entire story that’s completely made up. And it the problem was that if it wasn’t confident about that initial piece of information, she’s a voice actress in a cartoon.

08:15.26
Jason Barnard
it would have just said I don’t know. But because it had such confidence in that foundational piece of information, it just thought, I’ll make it up. And that that was hugely shocking for me.

08:22.02
peteeveritt
Yep.

08:24.42
Jeff
ah

08:24.75
peteeveritt
Yeah, I bet.

08:25.32
Jeff
I thought what you were saying there was the truth and then you’re going to tell us what was was not right. i’m like Oh, it just really went off on you.

08:29.07
Jason Barnard
I don’t know. She was in one cartoon with me once, but she’s a graphic designer, lives in the south of France, and hangs out at the local jazz cafe.

08:37.88
Jeff
Is she Swiss Canadian?

08:39.75
Jason Barnard
No.

08:43.29
peteeveritt
Brilliant.

08:45.53
Jeff
Oh, yeah.

08:45.69
peteeveritt
Brilliant.

08:46.04
Jason Barnard
And literally, none of what it said was true.

08:49.29
peteeveritt
So I.

08:49.70
Jason Barnard
um So it it got overexcited.

08:51.04
peteeveritt
i think

08:53.63
Jason Barnard
ChatGPT obviously thought, oh, I understand this one. And then it went off in its large language model and just started predicting and making things up. And we have another client who has a name that’s vaguely similar to a dead mineralogist.

09:07.48
Jason Barnard
And so it mixes up half of his life as the president of a major corporation in America and half of what it understands of this dead mineralogist.

09:07.63
peteeveritt
Right?

09:17.60
Jason Barnard
So we’re sorting that out for him, of course.

09:21.55
peteeveritt
So what, I think maybe where, where and what what you said’s just kind of, my head’s whirring at the minute, trying to get a ah coherent sentence out might be a challenge.

09:33.02
peteeveritt
But I think where if we, well, yeah, we can we can talk about drums if you want.

09:33.90
Jason Barnard
Talk about drums.

09:38.10
peteeveritt
And if we if we go back to the start of this, then the the whole concept of it. seems both logical and like completely like you’re trying to control something like nailing jelly to a wall both at the same time.

09:54.22
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

09:55.46
peteeveritt
And in in the the the little chat we had beforehand, you mentioned this term modern SEO. And that kind of strung a bit of a chord with me, not only because SEO is kind of what we do, but because actually the way that these technologies have come out, a lot of us, rightly or wrongly, have kind of assumed that they’re going to learn in the same way that the search engines index you, you know, algorithms crawling, links, etc., etc., authority, all of that kind of stuff.

10:05.91
Jason Barnard
yeah

10:23.00
peteeveritt
But i’m guessing that’s not actually how it works and so do you want to just unpack that so that term that i said you mentioned earlier modern seo and and kind of how that differs from my understanding of what the listeners understanding of ah seo might be and how that impacts on what you’ve been talking about.

10:40.16
Jason Barnard
Which is a really lovely question. I’ve been doing this for 12 years and Initially, I was saying Google’s your business card. You need to control the Google search result for your name I then started to do that for myself my company for my ex-wife for the cartoon characters for my group and Figuring out how do you control Google’s representation of you when somebody searches your name?

11:02.50
Jason Barnard
Turns out that that’s actually just entity management, entity optimization, and that’s what modern SEO is all about. Now, I got totally obsessed by this idea, you have to control that search result for your name, to the extent which I kind of thought, oh, everybody should be doing this and not everybody needs to do it, which is fine.

11:21.52
Jason Barnard
But what it turns out is that with the Google leak from last May, I think it was, I looked through the documentation,

11:25.52
peteeveritt
Mm hmm.

11:31.32
Jason Barnard
And a lot of what we’ve been doing is actually now foundational to the algorithms. And the algorithms still contain what we but I consider to be traditional ah SEO, which is look at the website and the content and optimize it. And that still needs to be done. It needs links to show that it’s popular. It it needs the content to be great and helpful. It needs the site to be fast so the user gets a great experience. It needs all of that stuff. So all of that stays, but Google isn’t satisfied with understanding the web page and the website anymore. It wants to understand which company or which person has published that content. Who is standing behind it? Who is the guarantor of that content? Because if you can understand that, you can see, is that person or company credible? When we talk about EEAT, are they expert, experienced, authoritative, and trustworthy?

12:25.32
Jason Barnard
then it wants to understand who wrote the content, who created the content, who is the content creator, the person. If it can understand that, then it can say, well, this person is expert, experienced, authoritative, and trustworthy, therefore this content is valuable and helpful. So you now have three tiers, the traditional level, which is website, web page, optimization, web publisher, the content publisher, optimization, and the author content creator.

12:53.60
Jason Barnard
optimization. So I just had two levels.

12:57.00
peteeveritt
that, you know, we have a good number of conversations with people about EEAT. This isn’t the first time it’s been mentioned on the show. And it’s, it’s, it’s not the first time it’s been mentioned on the show.

13:05.53
Jason Barnard
Really?

13:08.41
Jason Barnard
No, so I was teasing. That was my idea of being funny.

13:10.82
peteeveritt
i am

13:13.75
peteeveritt
sorry

13:14.20
Jeff
It’s also not the second, third, or fourth time either.

13:18.84
peteeveritt
So, ah but one of the, one of the things that we get asked about quite a lot, I was i did a live stream in a, group um last week, and it came up there, was, you know, EEAT essentially is a, that there’s no part of the algorithm which is actually EE, A or T.

13:38.50
peteeveritt
The EAAT is like ah a methodology, it’s ahs ah’s an example, it’s a standard to to go by, but it’s not actually part of the algorithm.

13:39.33
Jason Barnard
yeah

13:48.14
peteeveritt
And that’s ah that often ah confuses people a little bit as to say, well, what why can’t we just actually get on with doing real SEO rather than sort of playing to this um ideal that that that’s put forward by by google but i mean by Google themselves, literally.

14:03.42
peteeveritt
So um it’s it’s interesting that you mentioned that. But of all of that then, how much of that then feeds over or how much of that is similar to the training of things like AIs and voice activated search and all of that kind of stuff.

14:19.24
Jason Barnard
um Well, it’s actually all the same, which is good news for me. um in that we We work at CaddyCube on what we call the CaddyCube process. Understandability, credibility, deliverability. Understandability, does the machine understand who you are, what you do and who you serve? Credibility, does it believe you’re a credible solution for the subset of its users who are your audience?

14:42.47
Jason Barnard
deliverability, does it have the content from you that it can then deliver to its audience to bring them towards you and to inform them about you and give them the information that you want to share with them and essentially bring you down the foot bring them down the funnel to you. So we focus on saying, well, let’s make sure it understands you. If it can understand you as an author and a content creator or a publisher, then it can apply whatever credibility signals EEAT contains.

15:08.07
Jason Barnard
If it understands that you’re a credible solution, it will introduce you to the conversation, it will present you more often. If you have the content, the deliverability for it to do so, when somebody’s asking a question for which you have a relevant answer.

15:20.77
Jason Barnard
So it really is that simple. And if you look at EEAT, there’s been a lot of kind of debate, you know, it’s a fluffy term, but then the algorithms are

15:27.24
peteeveritt
Mm hmm.

15:29.89
Jason Barnard
opaque. We don’t know what goes on inside them. Google engineers don’t know what goes on inside them. They’ve just set the guardrails and the rules and how hope for the best, fingers crossed.

15:36.32
Jeff
I

15:40.26
Jason Barnard
The key there is that we can prove that Google understands who the author of a piece of content is.

15:40.34
Jeff
don’t know.

15:48.58
Jason Barnard
We can prove that Google understands who the publisher of that content is. Google is using that to judge the quality of the content. And right now, the effect on the content in terms of traditional SEO ranking is minimal, at best, and certainly unmeasurable. We’re now in a fluffy world of SEO where things become increasingly difficult to measure. And at CaliQube, we actually have a measurement of to what extent Google has understood who the author and the publisher are.

16:17.08
Jason Barnard
Now to what extent that actually boosts your SEO is another question. And it’s still early days, you know, it’s only been a year and a half that this has actually been the case.

16:28.48
peteeveritt
So essentially, has this been a a ah consequence that you saw basically of the major helpful content updates that rolled out throughout the second half of 2023?

16:37.81
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

16:40.33
peteeveritt
Because that was that was a different approach to the Google updates that they hadn’t done in Certainly a long time. i’m I’m not going to say never, but certainly in a long time that they actually had. Well, there was there was four in eight weeks, which was, which was great.

16:52.66
peteeveritt
It would, it would screw your data up. And just as things were starting to stabilize, they’d release the next phase and it screwed your data up again.

16:57.85
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

16:58.79
peteeveritt
um And, and, and, and round the circle went. So as essentially, has it been a consequence of that?

17:05.00
Jason Barnard
Yeah, what happened is, I mean, we’ve been tracking Google’s Knowledge Graph. And Google’s Knowledge Graph, for people who don’t know what it is, is basically an encyclopedia that machines can use in real time to understand the world. A huge Wikipedia. And to give you an idea of the scale, Wikipedia has six million articles, i.e. six million things that it describes or um gives you information about as an encyclopedia. Google’s Knowledge Vault, which we call the Knowledge Vault because that’s where the solid heart of the the the information is, has 54 billion

17:36.71
Jeff
ah

17:38.10
Jason Barnard
entities, articles, and at least 5000 billion attributes, relationships, pieces of information about those 54 billion entities.

17:49.43
Jason Barnard
So the scale is completely

17:49.46
peteeveritt
Wow.

17:53.48
Jason Barnard
off the charts. Wikipedia is no longer important in terms of being understood by Google, whereas it used to be. And you can see why when you say, well, Google can’t rely on Wikipedia when it’s that small. And I’m saying 6 million is small. 54 billion is a good size, but 54 billion is still small when you consider that Google wants to understand the entire world and the history of the world.

18:17.22
peteeveritt
Yeah.

18:19.67
Jason Barnard
So, I mean, we just go, oh, wow, this is nuts. And I’ll give you an exclusive piece of information.

18:26.25
peteeveritt
Come on then.

18:26.48
Jason Barnard
I was trying to calculate how many people there are in Google’s Knowledge Graph.

18:30.92
peteeveritt
Right.

18:31.69
Jason Barnard
And I came up with a number, it was it was this guesstimation, and it was in the billions. And I was sitting there thinking, well, that’s weird. There’s only eight billion people in the world. How can we possibly have a number of four to six billion? I can’t remember quite what the number was.

18:43.53
Jason Barnard
Then we did some research. In Wikidata, 70% of the people in Wikidata are dead.

18:51.78
Jeff
I.

18:53.22
peteeveritt
Yeah.

18:53.72
Jason Barnard
So it’s history.

18:54.69
peteeveritt
It’s history.

18:56.78
Jason Barnard
And that just ah blew my mind. It doesn’t actually help anybody, but you just go, ooh, isn’t that cool? And so that that’s gonna change over time is the the ratio of people from history who are now deceased to the people who are now alive is gonna change and it’s gonna change fast.

19:02.60
peteeveritt
Nope. Yep.

19:11.21
Jason Barnard
And a year ago, to come back to your initial question, Google tripled the number of people in the Knowledge Graph with living people, which gives us an idea of kind of quite where it’s gone with that.

19:18.95
peteeveritt
Okay.

19:22.29
Jason Barnard
And it went hugely aimed at understanding who people are, and aimed specifically at writers, authors, journalists, researchers, mathematicians, who are the people you would apply EEAT to.

19:35.11
Jason Barnard
So that’s a huge signal.

19:35.35
peteeveritt
Mm hmm.

19:35.83
Jason Barnard
Number one, it’s looking for people. Number two, it’s looking for people who write that journalists are researchers or mathematicians. And then you kind of think, well, if if it’s doing that, why is it doing that?

19:46.92
Jason Barnard
Why is it focusing on people? Because a publisher will be behind the same website. They can use the website as a proxy to understand the publisher. But the author is going to be writing for multiple websites, how on earth do they understand that I’ve written on search engine land, I’ve written on Forbes, I’ve written on my own website, I’ve written on my company website. It needs to understand me as I move around the web as a human being.

20:07.58
Jason Barnard
So it has to focus on people if it’s to get any kind of credibility measurement for EEAT. And to finish that off, sorry, I’m going on a bit, but the Knowledge Graph had that huge update tripling the number of people in the space of three days in July.

20:18.78
peteeveritt
Yeah, go for it.

20:28.27
Jason Barnard
And the Helpful Content Update in September had a huge increase in knowledge panels. So the helpful content update, as far as we have understood at Canikube, was an integration of the Knowledge Graph into the search algorithm algorithms, and it’s the first time we’ve seen that.

20:43.37
peteeveritt
Yeah.

20:44.94
Jason Barnard
In the March update, there was another March update, which we called Killer Whale, and then both the Knowledge Graph and the core algorithm, the helpful update, happened at the same time.

20:56.45
peteeveritt
Okay.

20:58.35
Jason Barnard
So you can see the knowledge graph is now being increasingly integrated into the search results. And if you look at the people also search for, there’s a new thing called, I can’t remember what it’s called, community or something like that, ah which is basically showing relationships between people.

21:09.18
peteeveritt
Yep.

21:13.71
Jason Barnard
But Google has to understand the people to understand the relationships, therefore the knowledge graph is being increasingly implemented in the search results. Sorry, I’ll stop.

21:22.14
peteeveritt
No, no.

21:22.38
Jeff
no it’s it’s interesting it’s kind of

21:24.09
Jason Barnard
I can’t stop.

21:29.48
Jason Barnard
Go ahead, sorry.

21:32.22
Jeff
I mean, I was just, we were talking about, ah when you were talking about the numbers, I was like, I bet you it’s counting dead people. So I was glad that you said that and that, you know, confirmed my suspicion.

21:39.31
Jason Barnard
Yes.

21:42.17
Jeff
But then when i I was really kind of thinking on that too, it’s it’s just going to keep compounding as people are born too. I mean, granted, it’s probably not going to be indexing any info about babies for a while until they become journalists.

21:47.98
Jason Barnard
No.

21:52.21
Jeff
But It’s that number, that’s going to be insane. That’s that’s just crazy. And and you know the first number I’m thinking, well, yeah, there’s got to be at least one bit of you know content about every website, blog, spammy, link online.

22:04.67
Jeff
But it’s I’m sure it’s even more than that. And then thinking about all the connections with people and community too. I mean, it really it’s ah it’s a web right across the internet.

22:09.37
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

22:12.03
Jeff
And oh, well, I guess, yeah, that’s why we call it the World Wide Web.

22:14.35
Jason Barnard
ah Where I brought across the internet, that’s the best quote I’ve heard all day.

22:17.60
Jeff
That was really brilliant, Jeff. Where’d you learn that? I don’t know, it was like 35 years ago.

22:22.31
Jason Barnard
ah

22:24.67
Jeff
ah But yeah, but anyway, it’s it’s pretty crazy.

22:25.61
Jason Barnard
But yeah, I mean, you you mentioned there’s a piece of content about everybody somewhere online, which is true. I mean, obviously not for babies, a lot of children as well are kept out of the internet, ah limelight as it were.

22:37.68
Jason Barnard
But one thing we’ve seen is my team at CaddyCube are not from the digital marketing space. They don’t have public facing ah personas as it were like I do. um And we’ve got multiple knowledge panels for them with only two social media profiles.

22:54.39
Jason Barnard
So they’re in Google’s Knowledge Vault, Knowledge Graph and have a knowledge panel simply through having a couple of social media profiles and being on the CaliQ website and Google trusts the CaliQ website so it believes what we say and it just adds them.

23:05.33
peteeveritt
Mm.

23:07.51
Jason Barnard
And if you ask chat GPT or Google Gemini, they understand who these people are. because we’ve educated those machines. And these people have very small digital footprints. And that just indicates to what extent Google and the other machines are learning about you 24-7 whether you like it or not.

23:27.62
peteeveritt
So do you, I mean, this is this is kind of Google specific. I realize i realized that we started off by talking about something that was like massive, massive in terms of its rollout, GPTs and ah voice activated search and this, that and the other. And then we’ve basically gone down the Google rabbit hole because you’re talking to me and Jeff.

23:44.33
peteeveritt
i’m

23:44.55
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

23:44.99
peteeveritt
but so i have heard I have heard of agencies in the past, I’ve spoken to agencies in the past, who actually use the Google knowledge panel as a bit of a a bit of a barometer to assess essentially how effective SEO is being, I guess. I don’t want to put words in their mouth, but do do you use that as one of your kind of indicators that that either your work is being successful or that work needs to be done, that somebody’s knowledge knowledge panel is underperforming?

24:14.33
Jason Barnard
Yeah, I mean, the knowledge panel represents understandability, so that’s where we start. Our first job with any client is say, let’s, if you have a knowledge panel, we’re gonna make it big, and we’re gonna make it accurate, and we’re gonna make it information rich, and we’re gonna make it trigger every time somebody searches your name. We’re gonna make it stable. If they don’t have a knowledge panel, we’ll build you one.

24:33.20
Jason Barnard
because that knowledge panel represents understanding. If the machine can understand who you are, what you’re doing, who you serve, then we can start building credibility on top of that. If it doesn’t understand, we can’t even begin to explain why you’re a credible solution. So we start with understandability, that’s the knowledge panel, that’s the KPI. Then credibility, we start building that. The credibility is what are the quality of the results and the accuracy of the results on the search and in the AI for you, so you search your name, is that left rail, the left hand side of the results, positive, accurate and convincing. If it is, then we’re starting to get credibility. If the knowledge panel has grown and it makes you look like a superstar, yeah, we’ve got credibility with understanding and we’re in a really good place.

25:17.50
Jeff
You mentioned before that it didn’t take a lot for, I may have put it in words in your mouth, but it didn’t sound like it took a lot to get some of your team members at Cali Cube to be featured in these as well.

25:26.08
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

25:27.92
Jeff
So am I correct in that? At least at this stage, it’s not, I don’t want to imply that it’s easy or imply that you can just click a couple of buttons and do it, but I’m guessing that right now is probably the time to be working on things like this because it’s still kind of fresh.

25:42.34
Jeff
It’s probably not terribly competitive. I’m assuming people aren’t out there being nefarious, trying to overtake other you know brand SERPs and things like that. So i’ I’m assuming it’s safe to say that you recommend getting on this sooner than later.

25:51.69
Jason Barnard
No.

25:57.36
Jason Barnard
yeah well there i mean Yes, exactly. There are multiple things going on there. Number one is um it’s relatively easier now than it’s going to be. And that’s usually important. But as you say, it doesn’t mean it’s easy. It just means if you’re organized, you can do it. And you need to be consistent over a period of time and across your entire digital footprint. And you need to build up your authority as a source of information for Google.

26:23.68
Jason Barnard
And CaddyCube, I’ve been working nine years on the CaddyCube website to make it a ah a reliable, trusted source of information for Google. Google basically believes anything we say. If you do it with your website, it won’t work because Google doesn’t yet trust you as a knowledge source.

26:37.52
peteeveritt
Hmm.

26:38.29
Jason Barnard
So we’ve become a Wikipedia in our space.

26:42.90
Jason Barnard
So yes, it is easy, but it, sorry, go ahead.

26:43.18
Jeff
not Not a bad place to be. That’s not a bad place to be.

26:48.20
Jason Barnard
No, and it took nine years. And for my own website, I’m a super duper mega Wikipedia for my niche, which is me. So for me, myself, Jason Barnard, and my topic, my website is a trusted source. CaddyCube is a trusted source for CaddyCube, its employees, its partners, and its product, and our topic. So you’re looking at building your trustworthiness of a source, and it’s not based on links.

27:15.33
Jason Barnard
CaliCube and jasonbanard.com, calicube.com and jasonbanard.com don’t have a huge number of links. If you look us up in Majestic or in AHS, we’re going to look like you know very small bit players. And yet we’re trusted and yet we can feed the Knowledge Graph with pretty much whatever we want. So you’ve got to distinguish between links, building trust. Links are popularity, they’re not authority. It’s a sign of popularity and that’s a really important thing to bear in mind. Google can’t rely on popularity. It has to find a different way to measure authority.

27:45.66
Jason Barnard
and you’re saying, start now, it’s goingnna it’s going to compound. The less well it understands today, the worse it’s going to be tomorrow. And if it’s misunderstood today, tomorrow it’s going to convince itself that it’s right, and it’s going to be harder to change its mind. Think of it as a child who’s learned something, and over multiple years it’s convinced itself that it’s right, and then all of a sudden you say, well, actually that’s wrong.

28:10.43
Jason Barnard
Getting the child to understand something new after five years is going to be significantly more difficult than correcting it today.

28:13.81
Jeff
You can relate with some of those some of those ah challenges.

28:22.18
Jason Barnard
You have kids?

28:23.22
Jeff
Yes.

28:23.95
peteeveritt
Yeah.

28:24.25
Jason Barnard
Yes.

28:25.94
Jeff
Both of us.

28:27.33
peteeveritt
Yeah. Yeah. Actually the the thing that sprung to my to my mind was that our dog trainer. When we got a puppy, um the dog trainer basically said the same thing, which is you can’t let the bad habits in the dog start now because however long a dog has a bad habit, it takes you twice as long to train it out of it.

28:43.74
Jason Barnard
oh

28:43.74
peteeveritt
So if you, you know, if you do, if you let it jump on the bed for a year, it’s going to take you two years for it to learn to not jump on the bed.

28:44.25
Jason Barnard
Ooh.

28:50.75
Jason Barnard
Oh, that’s good.

28:50.69
peteeveritt
Um, you know,

28:51.77
Jason Barnard
I like that. Oh, I don’t like it, but I don’t have a dog, so I don’t mind. But it’s ah it’s a really good analogy for me to tell my clients and prospects, if Google’s got a bad habit today, and it’s had that bad habit for a year, you’re looking at two years to sort it out.

29:05.88
peteeveritt
Yeah.

29:06.33
Jeff
You can use that in your next book. People allow it.

29:09.47
Jason Barnard
<unk>ll I’ll put,

29:09.57
peteeveritt
Yeah. of of Obviously, there’s a royalty and involved in it, but and and you heard it here first.

29:14.22
Jason Barnard
Yeah, we did. We definitely heard it here first.

29:18.11
peteeveritt
Well, I mean, right, I’ve got two two two directions in my head that this can go. The first is that you mentioned about the the the the ah the Knowledge Graph, the Knowledge Panel and the the Vault, Google Vault.

29:34.33
peteeveritt
um And then how how Google needs to essentially understand the human as an entity in in in all of this.

29:40.02
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

29:41.13
peteeveritt
Because as you said, you might write for Forbes, Search Engine Land, your own book, wherever you’ve, i know I know Jason, you’ve written in all those places. So i the the logical the logical side of this would then say, oh, well, all you really need is a personal brand website to pull all this together.

29:56.27
peteeveritt
And and that becomes the, but um’m I’m sensing that it’s a little more difficult than that.

30:03.45
Jason Barnard
It’s a little bit more difficult, um but not significantly more difficult. What is difficult is being less of a messy human and actually organizing and making consistent and clarifying and maintaining over time, which is where we get our clients from, is that we take all of that off their shoulders.

30:22.69
peteeveritt
Hmm.

30:27.30
Jason Barnard
So I can explain to you in three simple steps what you need to do.

30:27.16
peteeveritt
Right.

30:29.74
Jason Barnard
You create your own website, you’ve you’ve got the first step, that’s your entity home, where Google gets information from you about you or about you from you. So Google goes there, it says, okay, this is the information um about Pete from Pete.

30:46.24
Jason Barnard
You state who you are, what you do, who you serve, why you’re credible, and what you offer. Then you link out to all the resources that confirm what you say. First, second, and third party. So websites your own, website your own social media platforms that use second party, I would call that, where you semi-control, and third party where you have no control. You link back from those to your website. Google goes backwards and forwards and sees the same information over and over again like a child that learns by repetition.

31:15.53
peteeveritt
Yep.

31:17.39
Jason Barnard
That is the entire thing.

31:19.02
peteeveritt
There

31:19.70
Jason Barnard
That’s all you need to do. And it seems very simple, but the problem is that consistency is very difficult to do.

31:22.57
peteeveritt
you go.

31:28.86
Jason Barnard
The clarity is very difficult to do. How do you write so the machine understands you in terms of entities, relationships between entities, context clouds, and all that stuff? And how do you maintain it over time as your digital footprint grows and changes, as your market changes, your industry changes, and as the algorithms change?

31:47.10
Jason Barnard
So that is where CaddyCube and our clients get value from CaddyCube is number one, we maintain over time. Number two, we ensure that it’s right, the machine understands, we track it all. And more than anything, we take the weight off your shoulders. You don’t have to do it yourself. You can sleep well at night, focus on your life and know that it’s being taken care of. And so for everybody else who can’t or doesn’t want to pay for CaddyCube, you go to caddycube.com, K-A-L-I-C-U-B-E dot com slash guides. And we give it all away for free.

32:17.40
Jeff
There we go. We’ll put a link in the show notes for that.

32:18.30
peteeveritt
There you go.

32:18.47
Jason Barnard
You just, you download the guy, do it yourself, knock yourselves out, everybody can use it, people, corporations, music groups, music albums, clubs, products, films, anything. This works for all of these things and you can educate Google and that means there are billions and billions and billions and billions of things that need to be optimized. We’re all responsible for our our own little corner of the internet.

32:46.01
Jason Barnard
And we’re giving that away for free because we can’t serve everybody. What we can do is serve the people who see this as fundamentally important, want it done properly, want the weight taken off their shoulders, and want to be absolutely sure they’re getting it right.

32:56.05
peteeveritt
Yeah.

32:59.46
Jason Barnard
And for us, that means CEOs and founders of largest corporations will understand that their personal brand is a business asset, the driver of their career and their legacy.

33:10.27
peteeveritt
So that was the ah well that was excellent.

33:10.69
Jason Barnard
That was good, wasn’t it? I’m terrible.

33:12.45
peteeveritt
That was excellent.

33:13.02
Jason Barnard
I got from one one once’ from the start to the end without pausing.

33:13.09
peteeveritt
and i can

33:16.14
Jason Barnard
Sorry, go ahead.

33:17.92
peteeveritt
Well, I can guarantee that’s the second thing that anybody that’s listened this far in the podcast will type into Google. Cause the first thing we’ll be typing in is their own name to see if they’ve gotten their own knowledge panel.

33:25.47
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

33:27.09
peteeveritt
Um, so that, that was the first, yeah, I’ve already done mine.

33:29.18
Jeff
Let me check.

33:31.95
peteeveritt
Um, the, uh, the, that was the first place that I wanted to to sort of go. And thank you for being so succinct with it. The second place that my brain was going. was that um i it it is really encouraging the fact that, you know, Google will, you can, as a personal level or a small business level, you can have an an influence on these kinds of things. And now that you’ve mentioned your guides and stuff, of course, there’s more practical advice as to how to do that. But considering a lot of our audience are an agency owner and they’re they’re not going to be an expert in this as as you are, um but

34:08.89
peteeveritt
What are the kind of the the initial building blocks, the things that they might want to consider if they’re working with a client on a website? um you know we We know that when client sites come to us, they might not have done SEO for a long time, but actually, you know what?

34:23.67
peteeveritt
If the if the business owner has just been taking questions from his is clients and writing blogs, no matter how good or bad those blogs may be, the fact that it’s an active website, it’s been it’s been moving, it hasn’t just sat statically, that all helps us when we then start putting an SEO strategy in place.

34:31.81
Jason Barnard
yeah

34:40.20
peteeveritt
So kind of what are, from an entity point of view, what are those kind of building blocks that web designers, web builders might want to be considering talking to their clients to just to start like the first I was gonna say footsteps, but it’s not even that it’s like the first few inches of this kind of massive journey.

34:57.32
Jason Barnard
Yeah. Well, I mean, the the the actual the design doesn’t matter. It matters to humans. I mean, Google, actually, Google does have a static taste, which is an interesting idea.

35:10.47
Jason Barnard
I talked to Minas Merchant, who’s the head of video and image at Bing.

35:15.80
peteeveritt
yeah.

35:16.80
Jason Barnard
And he does the algorithms for video and image. And he he was delighted to tell me, we have a static taste. We’ve built it into the machine. um And Google shows that as well. So these machines do have aesthetic taste. They don’t just show any old images. They will actually make an aesthetic choice of the images. So I just said design doesn’t matter. Potentially it does a tiny bit, but let’s not worry about that. The the key to what’s going on now is you need to position position position yourself at the center of your cohort, the center of your industry.

35:47.40
Jason Barnard
you need to be the perfect representation of your industry and be right in the middle. Because if you look at Google Analytics, Google Ads, they work on cohorts. They group things together, people or companies together, and say, okay, this is a group that makes sense as a group.

35:56.39
peteeveritt
Hmm.

36:01.14
Jason Barnard
And if one of them, change sorry, any change in circumstances for a member of this group is likely to have XYZ effect because this group acts generally in the same way or has the same manner of acting. So Google is working in cohorts. And you can see that in the Knowledge Graph because they’ve got a section of the Knowledge Graph which is completely given over to cohorts. And we have no insight into that at all. So they’re machine-generated cohorts which are not cohorts we would necessarily understand. So it’s grouping things. And you need to stand right in the middle.

36:36.41
Jason Barnard
And the way you stand right in the middle is by walking the walk every step of the way, the best possible way for your audience. So you’re standing where they’re looking, demonstrating your credibility to them, inviting them down the funnel to serve them.

36:50.44
Jason Barnard
And Google can clearly see that that’s what you’re doing. They see who your audience is and how you’re serving them. And it’s really great holistic digital marketing package for Google.

36:58.56
peteeveritt
Mm hmm.

37:00.37
Jason Barnard
Branding marketing package for Google.

37:04.49
Jason Barnard
That’s what we do at Calicube as well.

37:06.01
peteeveritt
Cool.

37:07.74
Jason Barnard
Isn’t that cool?

37:09.16
peteeveritt
There you go. ah you go

37:11.03
Jason Barnard
And if if if you look at it, I mean, kind of what I’ve done is come from an SEO world, the very geeky world, so I can talk to you about Knowledge Graphs and SEO. Since 1998, I started with, you know, the same color text on the background and you were away and it was great.

37:24.49
Jason Barnard
um

37:24.67
Jeff
Hahaha!

37:25.95
peteeveritt
hey

37:27.04
Jason Barnard
And I’ve moved away from SEO just in the sense that I see SEO as serving digital marketing, it’s packaging of something you should already be doing for your audience anyway and it’s packaging for the machine so they can understand, digest it and replicate it because that’s what they’re trying to do, replicate human behaviour.

37:47.45
Jason Barnard
And focusing just on your website is a mistake, which is what a lot of SEOs do. You need to focus you need to explain to Google that Facebook page, that Twitter page, that article, um that um YouTube channel, that’s me. And all of that counts towards how you understand me and how you see my credibility and gives you opportunities to deliver me to your audience. Understand me, believe I’m credible, deliver me to your audience, and it can be on-site, off-site, and you need to join all those dots.

38:17.74
Jason Barnard
So a lot of the information on the stuff is going to be there because the company’s probably doing it anyway or the person is doing it anyway. You just need to package it for Google, join the dots. And if Google understands, the AI will understand. Chat GPT will understand.

38:32.82
peteeveritt
And it’s that simple. There we go.

38:34.71
Jason Barnard
There is that. Well, and that’s the thing. I’ve really got to be careful, as Jeff pointed out. I can’t say it’s incredibly simple. But the thing is, theoretically it is. But when you start doing it, you realize there’s so many moving parts.

38:45.92
peteeveritt
Yeah.

38:46.67
Jason Barnard
that it’s difficult to keep hold of.

38:48.57
Jeff
The concepts are simple, but it’s hard to put it in place and to keep up on it.

38:50.86
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

38:52.62
Jeff
And you and you mentioned multiple times consistency is the key.

38:55.28
Jason Barnard
And that’s what we were set as humans.

38:55.49
Jeff
And I’m sure I’m not speaking. i’m yeah I’m sure I’m speaking for a lot of people listening and that being consistent in anything you do is a huge challenge in life. So, you know, you can, you can, yeah, you can put in, you know, the steps.

39:04.86
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

39:07.94
Jeff
I mean, every January, right? That’s what we all do. We make all these new resolutions and we’re consistent for about a week or two.

39:14.10
Jason Barnard
No.

39:14.13
Jeff
So, and it’s, um you know, it’s the same thing we’ve seen, uh, you know We’ve seen the customers go, OK, we’re going to go off and do things on our own for a bit. And that lasts about a month. you know And they haven’t posted anything for a long time.

39:24.16
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

39:25.36
Jeff
and And it’s so easy to miss one deadline or one goal. And then they all fall behind after that.

39:29.59
peteeveritt
Yeah.

39:32.84
Jason Barnard
Yeah, and what what we’ve done at CaliCube is I actually built a mad machine 2015 when Google were talking about strings to things and I thought, oh, they can actually do this.

39:33.59
peteeveritt
Yeah.

39:43.33
Jason Barnard
And in fact, they couldn’t. and They’ve only just been able to do it a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago. So they were saying it and I thought, oh, they can do it. So I built this machine based on the idea that Google could actually understand things and we’re implementing it. Turns out it took them eight years to catch up with me. And I was just naive because I believed what they were saying. But lucky for me, I’ve got the machine and it it does multiple things. It sees to what extent you’ve joined the dots together correctly for the machine. It tracks how the machine’s understanding and it tracks your consistency. So if you’re inconsistent, we’re going to tell you.

40:14.17
peteeveritt
Yeah.

40:15.13
Jason Barnard
So you don’t even need to worry about it. You just sit back and wait for my team to send you your a message saying, oh dear, you’ve you’ve messed up there, haven’t you?

40:22.19
Jeff
ah We’re watching you.

40:22.54
Jason Barnard
And and and that’s that’s the that’s the service. as As you say, it’s very simple. Theoretically, the concept is simple. It took me 10 years to get get to get it this simple.

40:33.88
Jason Barnard
And I think when something is this simple and this obvious when I tell it to you, you can be pretty sure it’s true and it makes sense and it’s going to be universallyly universally applicable. It’s a universal strategy that’s timeless. And the simplicity is is what makes me confident that I’m not going to get stuck in a few years’ time.

40:55.67
peteeveritt
Yeah.

40:56.73
Jason Barnard
um But the simplicity is also brilliant, because I can explain it in a guide, you download the guide, you say, okay, I’ll follow the the think the the steps. Remaining consistent and keeping a track of all that is an impossible task, unless you’ve got the machine, which we do.

41:09.62
peteeveritt
Yeah. That’s a.

41:13.25
Jason Barnard
Didn’t that go, oh, sorry, and we were talking about something earlier on, is schema markup.

41:15.54
peteeveritt
Go for it.

41:19.36
Jason Barnard
ah i’m I’m sure everybody’s got schema markup installed on their WordPress website.

41:22.54
peteeveritt
Mm hmm.

41:25.94
Jason Barnard
Schema Markup has explicit semantics, so it explains to Google and other machines what’s in a page in its native language. Implicit semantics is the page itself and all the content around the web that supports what’s on that page. And a guy called Jano van Driel, who’s a super expert in Schema Markup, loves to talk about what we’re doing at CaliCube, which is implicit semantics.

41:50.22
Jason Barnard
The machine should be able to understand without the schema markup. The schema markup simply repeats to it what it’s already understood in the language that was invented for it and reassures it that its understanding was correct. So the implicit semantics is the key, not the schema markup.

42:08.49
Jeff
Yeah, we were we’ve had this conversation recently around schema where you you can tell it. Same thing with meta descriptions. You can tell Google what you want it to say, what you think it should say, but it’s still up to Google.

42:17.19
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

42:18.48
Jeff
It’s it’s still going to make that decision and and they will determine.

42:18.97
Jason Barnard
ah

42:21.68
Jeff
and That’s a great example of saying that in in the real world because ah we’ve had many people, oh, I typed this and it’s not coming up. Well, it’s going to take some time and it may not ever show up because it’s just a suggestion.

42:33.89
Jason Barnard
Yeah. Yeah, and with, yeah, exactly, 100%, and the schema markup is similar, it’s saying, oh, this is this is what we say, and Google’s gonna go and check, it doesn’t just believe you, and if it doesn’t say that everywhere on the web, the implicit semantics, it won’t repeat stupidly what you’ve just said. So the key is that consistency, and the reason I was talking about that before is we’ve we’ve used Yoast, we’ve used um Wordlift, I’ve also used Schema app, and I just built a plugin for WordPress.

43:04.13
Jason Barnard
because none of them do what we did what my plugin does, which is join the dots and make sure it’s consistent across every single platform we own. And since we installed it, I wrote it three three, four weeks ago, I’d love to say I was a genius developer, but I’m not. I just asked Gemini to write it for me. And it took me, I don’t know, about a day. And it’s a pretty good plugin. And what it does is generate all the schema markup for all the pages.

43:32.25
Jason Barnard
and for the entities, joins all the dots together. And because we control it from our platform, we’re absolutely certain the consistency is across the board. And Yoast is a brilliant plugin. And Jonah Alderson, who wrote the schema market for it, is a genius. But they can’t control the consistency of people who install it. um And so what I’ve done is just built a plugin that we use just for our clients to say, well, we’re going to control it and ensure we’re going to guarantee that it’s consistent across the board.

43:59.94
Jason Barnard
because that is fundamental and we understand that that’s what’s going to make the machine basically dance to our tune.

44:11.38
peteeveritt
That’s impressive.

44:13.13
Jason Barnard
It’s cool. I love doing it as well. um I mean, I’m a geek at heart and I’ve explained it to you, but nobody else cares. They should still install the plug-in and let it get on with it. but Well, i was but I was surprised that

44:21.05
Jeff
Like, I can’t explain how excited I am to play with it. I go, ooh, this sounds fun.

44:27.86
Jason Barnard
um that it didn’t take me longer. And I think that the thing is people are saying, oh, with Gemini and chat GPT, you can write code. And I realized you can. But they mess up all the time.

44:39.34
Jason Barnard
And if you don’t actually know what you’re doing, it’s going to be a terrible mess. So I’m lucky I’d learned to code before. I’m not the best coder.

44:45.83
peteeveritt
Yeah.

44:46.93
Jason Barnard
But with Gemini, chat GPT, I can do a very, very, very decent job of a WordPress plugin in ah in a couple of days.

44:55.04
Jeff
It’s pretty amazing.

44:56.26
peteeveritt
It is, it’s absolutely amazing. I was actually using it to do some code for me the other day. um my my My lead dev, so my my background was in development as well, but I haven’t done that for, well.

45:05.98
Jason Barnard
All right.

45:10.47
peteeveritt
regularly for at least six or seven years. And, uh, you know, I’m, I’m fortunate enough. I’ve got a team of people that that do that for me. And my lead developers on holiday next week.

45:19.04
Jason Barnard
Uh oh.

45:19.94
peteeveritt
And sure enough, the, the week he’s trying to clear his plates and whatever the world’s gone absolutely nuts. And there’s requests coming in from. websites that we haven’t touched in months and if not longer. So I needed to roll my sleeves up and get into some of this stuff and actually being able to like take a chunk of code out of a functions file, chuck it into chat GPT and say, right, this is the code we have. This is what the amend is, or this is how we need it changing.

45:46.97
peteeveritt
go do and then stick it on a staging site and make sure it was all right. And you were dead, right. You know, I had this thing where it was, um, it kept on giving me a zero and it was putting a blank array at the end, at the end of everything. And, um, it, it, it was echoing out all of the functions that got to the very end and it returned it. And it was, it was just, it was just screwing it up. And, uh, so I managed to.

46:07.66
peteeveritt
teach chat GPT something when I went and fixed its code, which was quite quite quite nice. for and You know, an old dog trying to trying to get back into this game very quickly just to keep the wheels moving a little bit.

46:18.20
Jason Barnard
Yeah.

46:18.10
peteeveritt
um But yeah, that was a bit of fun anyway.

46:22.08
Jason Barnard
Yeah, no, I found it a really, really interesting experience and a rewarding experience. um And it makes me now realize that I built the whole CaddyCube system. It’s got 2 billion data points, which we’ve collected over the last nine years. There’s a whole interface. The whole thing’s connected together. It’s all in my head. And my big problem was how to represent it on the front end, because i’m a rubber eat if I’m rubbish at one thing, it’s front end development.

46:49.50
Jason Barnard
But luckily for me, Gemini and ChatGPT are really good at it. So it’s just solved my biggest problem.

46:56.08
peteeveritt
There you go. So if you’re listening and you want to you want to give Jason’s website say a a once over, just ah contact him and and say that you can do a better design job than chat GPT.

47:07.87
peteeveritt
The job’s yours.

47:08.54
Jason Barnard
Yep, yep, definitely.

47:11.89
peteeveritt
Fantastic. Well, Jason, I really appreciate your time um spending the time with us today. um Jeff, before I, i and we’re really cool if this this platform that we’re recording in had like ah ah an easy way of some of us like conversing. So that I’ve got another question to ask or don’t forget this, but we haven’t been using it like that. So, Jeff, have you got anything else that you wanted to raise before we kind of wrap things up or?

47:35.10
Jeff
I have no further questions, but I don’t, I don’t think we really got a chance to talk about Jason’s book and make sure that everybody knows that if you would like to learn much more about this, the fundamentals of brand SERPs for business, you can tell us anything more.

47:48.93
Jeff
Jason is available on Amazon. We can put the links in the show results, show notes here.

47:51.46
Jason Barnard
Yeah. ah Well, I wrote it two and a half years ago and somebody asked me the other day, oh with chat GPT, has anything changed? Have you had to rewrite the book? And the wonderful answer is no.

48:02.07
Jeff
Nice.

48:02.77
Jason Barnard
Still works.

48:02.86
peteeveritt
Fantastic.

48:04.42
Jason Barnard
And was I lucky or am I smart? Everything we do worked out, Chut GPT worked out in the box. We didn’t have to do anything in ah in addition. So with the CaliCube process, if Google understands, the AI understands, and you can sleep easy. Or if you’re our client, you can sleep easy. Or if you’ve gone to CaliCube.com, K-A-L-I-C-U-B-E dot com slash guides, download the guide, do it yourself. Then you can sleep easy as well, but it’s going to be more work for you.

48:35.05
peteeveritt
Love it, love it. Well, it’s it’s ah at the time of day right now, is it’s ah it’s just approaching six o’clock here in the UK, which means it’s seven o’clock in France. um I’m guessing there’s and a nice vand Rouge waiting for you somewhere and, ah you know, for for the evening.

48:48.85
Jason Barnard
Yep, a baguette and a bit of cheese that my daughter just brought home. So it’s baguette and cheese, a little glass of wine. um The evening’s kicking in and I’m very happy to finish my day with you guys.

49:01.49
peteeveritt
but ah it’s It’s been a pleasure to chat to you, Jason. Thank you very much for your time, as I say. um yeah the The knowledge that you’ve sort of you’ve obviously got going on ah behind those glasses of yours is is is very, very insane.

49:11.47
Jason Barnard
yeah

49:15.13
peteeveritt
Even the dog wants to know part of it. i am so yeah So thanks thanks again. and last Last thing then, if people do want to reach out with you if to you, if they do want to connect with you, what’s the best places for them to do that?

49:27.26
Jason Barnard
Ah, well you use my Google business card, which is search my name, Jason Bernard, J-A-S-O-N-B-A-R-N-A-R-D, and you’ll find my site at the top, the knowledge panel, my company website if you want to do business with me, go to the company website if you want to download a guide, my articles, read up on Forbes, on Search Engine Lands, Twitter if you want to tweet me, LinkedIn if you want to hang out on LinkedIn, and then some videos generally speaking,

49:52.61
Jason Barnard
ah search engine land, about page for me, I control the whole thing. And the idea of the Google business card, when you search my name, it’s up to you to decide how you want to engage with me. And that’s the beauty of what we do at CaliQube.

50:07.61
peteeveritt
Fantastic. Well, go and do that. I do just want to leave you with one one thought. However, you mentioned Twitter, which of of course is now called X.

50:14.50
Jason Barnard
Yeah. Oh, oh.

50:15.16
peteeveritt
So does that mean that tweets are now kisses?

50:21.11
Jason Barnard
Oh, I don’t like Twitter or X, but I do like kisses, so I’m kind of like now torn. You’ve just ruined my evening.

50:29.13
peteeveritt
Just Google me and kiss me. No, no, hang on. That sounds wrong.

50:32.50
Jason Barnard
No, it does.

50:33.95
Jeff
That’s what we need. We need somebody to ah buy X from Twitter and just come or from from Elon and just completely turn it around on it.

50:43.99
peteeveritt
Jason, you’ve been an absolute star. I really hope we can keep in touch. And, you know, who knows? We but may even feature on an article or a show or whatever. Again, that’s, it’s been fantastic having you.

50:51.97
Jason Barnard
yeah Yeah.

50:53.08
peteeveritt
Thanks. Thanks for your time. And, uh, yeah, we, ah all the details that Jason’s mentioned will be in the show notes, uh, in your podcast player of choice. So, uh, make sure you go and check it, check him out, check them out and connect with him obviously in the place that you feel comfortable because he owns it all.

51:09.20
Jeff
yeah

51:10.99
peteeveritt
Thanks again.

51:11.19
Jason Barnard
Brilliant. Thank you so much. That was brilliant. Pete, Jeff, thanks.

51:14.56
peteeveritt
See ya.